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Vegetation map

PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:19 am
by mauronen
Hi Aaron.

I'm sure that you have previously answered me about VM, but actually i don't remember.

There any possibility, in a near future, to implement a Vegetation Map (with a Vegetation Editor) that allows to put trees, bushes and that allows to build woods (like ScapeMaker actually does)?

And, in L3DTVi2 (or in the new 3D viewer that you are developing) Vegetation Map is rendered like ScapeMaker actually does?

Or is simply a flat representation of trees (like Texture Map)?

Cheers.

Mauro.

PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 8:30 pm
by Joshua
This certainly would be useful. Currently we've been using the VTP project, but having it in L3DT would be handy. :wink:

PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 12:38 pm
by Aaron
Hello,

I had not forgotten. Vegetation mapping is provisionally on the to-do list for v2.5. I can't give a time estimate, though.

Cheers,
Aaron.

PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 1:58 pm
by mauronen
Hi Aaron.
I know that Vegetation Map is on plan for 2.5 release of L3DT.

I want to know only if VM will be built with a philosophy like ScapeMaker or VTP.

Cheers.

Mauro.

PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 2:18 pm
by Aaron
Hi Mauro,

Umm...I'm not really sure. I've never used ScapeMaker, and I haven't touched the vegetation system in VTP either. What I was planning on doing was procedurally calculating plant density maps, much like the way there are alpha maps for the textures. From these density maps, L3DT could then generate a list of tree positions in whatever format you like.

At this stage I have not intention of making a 3D plant placing interface.

Cheers,
Aaron.

PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 10:06 pm
by Joshua
I don't 3D would be necessary at all, especially since L3DT is for terrain creation, not rendering.

PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 11:55 pm
by Hypnotron
this is something ive been working on in a not so sophisticated manner and the biggest problem for me was programmatically determining types of flora for a given area. For instance, whats a swamp area vs a lake area. Where would you place tropical beach flora versus a more pacific northwest style beach vegetation.

So i just opted to create flora schemes and you can manually set the scheme for a given region and then it generates the positions for plants and such.

PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 1:41 am
by Aaron
Hi Hypnotron,

Yup, that's the sort of system I was planning to use, and in fact it's pretty-much what the climate system does already. What I'll probably do is duplicate the climate system so that each flora scheme has distribution parameters just like the land types.

Cheers,
Aaron.

PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 6:32 am
by mauronen
Hi Aaron.

I was planning to use, and in fact it's pretty-much what the climate system does already. What I'll probably do is duplicate the climate system so that each flora scheme has distribution parameters just like the land types


This is that i'm expect, but this means that in L3DTVi2 landscape will appear like this ?

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

This is how ScapeMaker render landscapes. Other examples at http://www.shedeki.net/sm_e/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=22&Itemid=42

Cheers.

Mauro.

PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 9:00 am
by Joshua
I don't usually post disparaging remarks, but those shots are hideous. :shock:

I think what aaron is referring to, is a two dimensional "coverage map" which could be used by your real time solution to place tree models (mesh, billboard cloud, whatever you're using).

PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 9:25 am
by Aaron
Hello,

Hmmm...maybe my standards are low, but I don't think I'd go so far as to call those hideous. The textures leave a little to be desired, and the lighting on the trees...well, there isn't any. Nevertheless, I think they've done a pretty good job of rendering lots of trees, the close-up grass/pebbles, water, and the skies. I was mildly impressed.

In any case, I'm not going to modify L3DTVi2 (because I can't), and I haven't started work on a 3D renderer yet. Basically, it's going to be a while before L3DT has a 3D renderer that looks anything like this.

Cheers,
Aaron.

PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 1:26 pm
by dEaThMaStEr
I'd definatly like a veg map as nothing really special, just an extra colored image that can be exported. Different colors represent different plants and densities. I know that'd be great for me because then if that could be loaded into TSE, special shape and plant replicators could be made that automatically place foilage exactly how you want it.

Oh, and for a 3D renderer, I think you should maybe look into TSE yourself. It's become a pretty popular pairing with L3DT. Theres just a couple drawbacks, such as having to generate your terrains and textures into a different format before using them. But at the moment, its stable enough and runs pretty well.

PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 6:46 pm
by mauronen
Joshua said:I don't usually post disparaging remarks, but those shots are hideous :shock:

Sorry Joshua, but the shots that i've linked explains how 3D render of ScapeMaker works. I don't pretend that L3DTVi2 (or the new Aaron's 3D renderer) works similarly. I simply took some examples to how another software, starting from coverage map concepts, renders into 3D. These objects are simply .3ds models. If the are "hideous", is enough (...) create new 3DS modes objects that are similar (or exactly) representation of trees or bushes. ScapeMaker's developers has stopped to produce releases at early 2005.
I agree with Aaron about poor quality of textures. Overall L3DT software quality is superior about ScapeMaker. My opinion is that ScapeMaker's Workflow (Topography, Water, Texture, Objects, Clouds, Environment,) might be used as "reference". Actually L3DT's Workflow (Design, Heightfield, Water, Attributes, Light, Texture) is very similar, but lacks about "object positioning" (like trees) and "atmosphere management" (like clouds and fog, altough the last one is present in L3DTVi2).
These aren't accusations :wink: , but only "tips" to improve great Aaron's work.

Last question for Aaron:
dEaThMaStEr said:Oh, and for a 3D renderer, I think you should maybe look into TSE yourself. It's become a pretty popular pairing with L3DT. Theres just a couple drawbacks, such as having to generate your terrains and textures into a different format before using them. But at the moment, its stable enough and runs pretty well.


Do you have tried TSE? It's easy or difficult to "pairing" with L3DT?

Cheers.

Mauro.

PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 12:09 am
by Aaron
Hi dEaThMaStEr,

dEaThMaStEr wrote:Oh, and for a 3D renderer, I think you should maybe look into TSE yourself. It's become a pretty popular pairing with L3DT. Theres just a couple drawbacks, such as having to generate your terrains and textures into a different format before using them. But at the moment, its stable enough and runs pretty well.


Yes, I am looking into building a 3D renderer with TSE. I've got a few other things on my plate right now, however, so I can't say when I'll get to the coding part.

Cheers,
Aaron.

PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:32 pm
by Forboding Angel
Wanted to post before I forgot.

Ok, the sm2 (spring mapping 2) format now uses a feature map that is black and the feature placing goes from red 255 - red 1 for specific features.

Basically each 1 pixel dot of red corresponds to a different model.

Is it possible that using this type of map, l3dt could output spring feature maps? The size of the feature map is always (texture size / 8 = feature map size).

THis would be so incredibly useful I can't describe. Not to mention that placing 8000+ red dots on an image is not my idea of fun.