Sequential Maps: Custom editing (fine detail) etc.

[Rmorph]

Hi there,

Thanks for a great product.

I am trying to make a series of maps for my Game world: I would like the maps to be sequential, in that the borders line up perfectly like tiles.

Is it possible to do this in L3DT? That is: build a map with preexisting border information:

For example: I have already built the maps to the North and to the South of the "Volcanic Ridge Zone" map.Is there anyway to import the North and south border data to a new map and "lock it" so that under fine editing of the new map it will not change and will match up perfectly when this new map is made?

Also: Is there a way to go in and fine edit a map, while locking certain areas that I am happy with? (For example borders etc) I would like to be able to fine tune maps in greater detail without losing the overall "feel" of what I have, and keeping border values. A zoom? function and a "Lock" function?

By border values I mean: that the edges will continue to line up with a preexisting map.


I hope this wasn't too obtuse a description,



Cheers,

Mike in Norway.

[Aaron]

Hi Mike,

Is it possible to do this in L3DT? That is: build a map with preexisting border information.

Not at the moment, but it is somewhere on my to-do list. It's not a particularly easy thing to do I'm afraid.

Also: Is there a way to go in and fine edit a map, while locking certain areas that I am happy with? (For example borders etc) I would like to be able to fine tune maps in greater detail without losing the overall "feel" of what I have, and keeping border values. A zoom? function and a "Lock" function?

Sorry, presently you can neither fine-tune the map at higher detail nor lock areas. The former is already on the to-do list, and I’ve just added the latter to the list as well (it’s a good idea).

As for other software; you can definitely edit the terrain manually in Leveller. You could also use World-Machine, with a judicious choice of filters and mask-maps, to modify specific areas (though no direct editing). Lastly, the heightfield can be exported as an image and edited in Photoshop/etc, then re-imported. This last option isn’t all that great at the moment, though; there’s a mis-match between L3DT’s 16-bit image import/export format (png) and PS’s (raw, basically), and 8-bit formats aren’t worth the bits their encoded with. The next release of L3DT will add full RAW import/export, so 16-bit editing in PS will be possible.

Cheers,
Aaron.

[Rmorph]

I see

Thanks for the response.

[JavaJones]

There's also the fairly good and rather free Wilbur, in active development (and with some very cool things on the way).

- Oshyan

[DeathTwister]

Hay all,

Aaron wrote:

As for other software; you can definitely edit the terrain manually in Leveller. You could also use World-Machine, with a judicious choice of filters and mask-maps, to modify specific areas (though no direct editing). Lastly, the heightfield can be exported as an image and edited in Photoshop/etc, then re-imported. This last option isn’t all that great at the moment, though; there’s a mis-match between L3DT’s 16-bit image import/export format (png) and PS’s (raw, basically), and 8-bit formats aren’t worth the bits their encoded with. The next release of L3DT will add full RAW import/export, so 16-bit editing in PS will be possible.

Have you fixed this yet Aaron in the new release? I was wondering as I just now realized why I haven't been able to work Photo Shop with the RAW files I had made in L3DT easy. Now I understand why...... if it is not fixed, ETA on that maybe? I didn't see it on the list of stuff that was done in last release, the beta 2 one.

DeathTwister

[Aaron]

Hi Maylock,

L3DT does indeed now support full import/export of RAW heightfields (it was included in beta1, though I did a piss-poor job of adverting the fact). For more information on the specific RAW data-modes, and tricks for importing/exporting RAW, please refer to the raw format specs page.

However, there is another problem here. Photoshop doesn't really support 16-bit images very well - not all of the filters, tools and effects work properly or at all.

Cheers,
Aaron.

[DeathTwister]

good morning,

Hay Aaron, thanks for getting back to me on that.

Aaron wrote:

However, there is another problem here. Photoshop doesn't really support 16-bit images very well - not all of the filters, tools and effects work properly or at all.

Wow that figures and they are not so easy to work with or probably even care bout us. Oh well for a work around can we?:

Aaron wrote:

InvertY
The InvertY option automatically flips the y-axis on import/export. This is useful as L3DT uses a right-handed coordinate system in which the y-axis increases ‘up the screen’, whereas many programs use a left-handed system where the y-axis increases ‘down the screen’.

Can we just invert the axis here instead of flipping it in photo shop then? Since I can't manage them the way I would want? Or just flip the .png Texture in photo shop to correct it? which one is easier and better I am wondering?
Resizing just one pixel for export is a easy fix for one of the export problems for Torque anyway. But I see that this seems to be a little bit more complicated then for other importers as well then? Wish there could be some standards some times, but then we wouldn't all be on the bleeding edge would we? /chuckles..

On a up note having a gas with the climate editor, WOW is it fun. Having a bit of a wobble though in one area. The problem is this and this is probably a request over all.

While I am in the design map and trying to re-Edit the terrain I can find my height field easy enough by looking at the bottom, but I also need if I can to know exactly what other info I had had in that Climate editor and land types, and the setting I had for each one, errosion, fractal, lake, sea and so on. So I know where I was, in order to know what I need to go after to change things, without changing stuff I want to keep. As it is now, or as far as I have figured it out, it changes the terrain over all more then I want. If I had the rest of the info, "as my pee brain can't seem to remember all I had done to it from before", it is a pig in a poke where I was basically hoping to change just a few areas slightly, not hugely like I am getting. I know some to allot of it is me, but I would have a wish list of some kind of Tree for each square? or is that to much to do, not wanting to be a pain? On the up side I am glad I have the height info the most as it does help me keep it kinda close over all. I should mention that I am creating new Climates that are very close to each other in most ways, then re-apply the new climate with the new brush I made.

Maybe make that as part of the sub-dividing brush to get smaller and better detail in areas of the terrain? Oh and is the going to be a way to lay roads down maybe somehow so you could cut a way through a mountain road, or follow a river with it's up.s and downs? spline based? or textured based? I was just curios at this point as it is going to be something I will need to get into later at some point in my terrains. So I thought I would ask about it now and maybe shoot me to a Tut somewhere or maybe put it on a 2-do-list in the future or look at that idea somewhere down the road?

Thanks for your time bro and my Programmer has some questions 4 a post, but he left for out of town on Bizz for a few days and when he gets back we will do a post on programming stuff he has questains on with the viewer and a few other things. Oh by the way he is very impressed with your programming, very clean he says, WTG dude he don't get impressed very often....Hahahahaha

Checking out Wilber and Enviro as well, Tata dudes see ya'll soon.

CYA soon: Maylock aka DeathTwister

[Aaron]

Hi DeathTwister,

Can we just invert the axis here instead of flipping it in photo shop then?

Yes.

Or just flip the .png Texture in photo shop to correct it? which one is easier and better I am wondering?

It'll be quicker if you use the InvertY option in L3DT.

While I am in the design map and trying to re-Edit the terrain I can find my height field easy enough by looking at the bottom, but I also need if I can to know exactly what other info I had had in that Climate editor and land types, and the setting I had for each one, errosion, fractal, lake, sea and so on.

I plan to have a nice hover-box to display the pixel info in some future release, but for now you can just double-click on the design-map pixel to get the exact values. As for viewing the climate info (eg land types &c) from the design map view; I don't think so, it would be very messy. Maybe in the future.

So I know where I was, in order to know what I need to go after to change things, without changing stuff I want to keep. As it is now, or as far as I have figured it out, it changes the terrain over all more then I want...Maybe make that as part of the sub-dividing brush to get smaller and better detail in areas of the terrain?

The current design-map system doesn't give you very fine control over the final terrain, since it was originally inteded to make huge maps where fine control would be too much to handle. Consequently, there is a limit to how small a change you can make. Finer manual control over the design map is on my to-do list.

Oh and is the going to be a way to lay roads down maybe somehow so you could cut a way through a mountain road, or follow a river with it's up.s and downs?

Roads are already on the to-do list.

Cheers,
Aaron.

[DeathTwister]

Good morning Gentlemen,

Yawn, I guess to start with before I ask a few is I seem to be finding bugs I think.

First bug is that I cannot import anything. The box is blank, and I tried to take a print screen to show you and I find that inside L3DT I cannot take screen shots with this latest version. I don't think it is my comp though but I never know.

Second bug is it seems that my ram is getting backed up somehow as if I work for a bit and change the climate and Design map enough it will stop showing the effects or the updated terrain. I then have to restart my comp to clear the ram out. I have a gig of ram on my comp, with about 256 megs allocated to my sound fonts and it may well be a conflict with my music sound fonts on my cpu maybe? I haven't had the time to test this on my 64 bit comp as I am still waiting for a bigger power supply since the one I had was to small to run my new system and it has a gig as well of ram to see if it still does it with basically no sound fonts on it other then the default at 4 megs. and it may have nothing to do at all with that, but thought I might volunteer a possibility. Is any one else having that trouble? or just me? I have spent many hours this weekend with it testing stuff, textures that I took this week and messing with stuff, and I can't figure out if it is me or the program. But it does not do anything weired when I am doing other stuff on the comp so I suspect L3DT. Sorry Aaron I hope it isn't a biggy and it does work /chuckles. I can't keep my hands of your program as I love it more then actual video games. I play L3DT, my programmer plays games hahahahahahaha.....

OK, to get back to the post now, yawn second cup of coffee/JAVA this morning, almost awake..

Aaron wrote:

I plan to have a nice hover-box to display the pixel info in some future release, but for now you can just double-click on the design-map pixel to get the exact values. As for viewing the climate info (eg land types &c) from the design map view; I don't think so, it would be very messy. Maybe in the future.

COOL COOL, thanks a bunch bro and thanks for the info by double clicking on the square, I didn't think of that trick, doh

Aaron wrote:

The current design-map system doesn't give you very fine control over the final terrain, since it was originally intended to make huge maps where fine control would be too much to handle. Consequently, there is a limit to how small a change you can make. Finer manual control over the design map is on my to-do list.

Ah, I see, yes making very huge terrains is very important, and yes yes a brush size like in photo shop would be the bomb to get very fine detail, zoom in get a finer brush and get those very KEWL terrains or effects done.
Aaron wrote:

Roads are already on the to-do list.

COOL

Cool, Cool, well after working and messing with terrains and textures I have come up with a new terrain for my art gallery that I intend to have as the new world before we release it. We almost got it finished, then decided I wanted it in a shader engine and I wanted more control over terrain then I had in the old engine. So we are rebuilding it on the fly, /chuckles and we done it so many times now that changing engines isn't that big a deal now hahahaha, so we should still have the mesh all done in the next 2 months tops and hopefully have all the code as well to go live, we hope and we are only 2 guys who get side tracked allot as well ROTFL. anyway here are a few to see and a couple of links to click on.







Then links to show you some features I found with the textures....

A close up look at the textures I am working with, still a bit more of tweaking to do to it, but all in all I am getting happy with what I am getting now. Dang I love this climate editor dude.

http://www.theatomizer.com/postedImages/VG1cwWater14.jpg

A good shot of the Volcano of yours using the large setting. It will be great when we can effect the volcano more with that brush size issue, and excited about it when you do finish that aspect of the editor.

http://www.theatomizer.com/postedImages/VG1cwWater8.jpg

Set at 10 miles for this zone wish will get split up some with zones you get the idea of the buildings and bridges that will span over the water to get from one area to another. My programmer is going to convert the viewer I think soon to C and we will keep you posted on that. I finally got him into looking at the pascal code. He says it shouldn't be to hard to do and he is kinda curious as I have given him my wish list, one of them is reflect map on the water would be very sweet. No eta on that yet, will get back on that one but we looking at it now some anyway. We still need to get the 2 projects done and on to the next before we get deep into it. somewhere during getting DeathLords finished I am thinking.

http://www.theatomizer.com/postedImages/VG1cwWater9.jpg

and finally we have just another shot to show texture. When I am satisfied with what I have, I will make a ATOMIX (special) climate for peeps to download with all the new textures I have been shooting from the klamath area. Well most of them are, some I made up out on my head hahahahahahahaha.............the trick is can you tell which ones are mine and which ones are photo's.....hum, maybe make a contest with that one ROTFL, ok just kidding kids. Should look sweet when we get all the forests, trees, bushes, grass, buildings, bridges and so on in the next couple of months, can't wait going to be a hoot.

DeathTwister aka Maylock

[trollfiddler]

Hi Aaron,

Just wondering if a copy/paste facility in the design map is possible? If so that would be a cheap way of adding functionality to add maps together. Just open two copies of L3DT and copy the line of tiles from the border in one window into your newly created map in the other widow, and you have matching borders. Then you could carry on and generate everything else.

Cheers,

T.

[DeathTwister]

Hi Trollfiddler,

Just wondering if a copy/paste facility in the design map is possible? If so that would be a cheap way of adding functionality to add maps together. Just open two copies of L3DT and copy the line of tiles from the border in one window into your newly created map in the other widow, and you have matching borders. Then you could carry on and generate everything else.

Ok, that one went over my head there somewhat, What did you mean bro? Are you talking about with the mesh? that is a thought now if I am understanding what you are saying and you want to match terrain, not textures? That actualy does make sence doing that your way i think. Did it work?
I would think the textures would match as well when put together?
Humm good questain .

Actually upon thinking bout that one a bit more, I think you would have to flip them somehow wouldn't you? That could be tricky as no easy way to flip design maps or map squares around that I know of. Maybe take each tile at a time and lay them in? Humm, good questain maybe I'll play with that idea later when I work in L3DT today to see if it can be done. Doubt it though. Ok enough from the peanut gallery hahaha.....good questain though.

DeathTwister

[Aaron]

Hi trollfiddler,

Just wondering if a copy/paste facility in the design map is possible?

Hmmm…I probably should include copy/paste some time. I’m not sure in this case that it would achieve you goals, however, as the heightfield generation algorithm is partly random, so the borders won’t match exactly. Nonetheless, it’s an interesting idea, and one I’ll have to think about some more. Thanks for the suggestion.

Cheers,
Aaron.

[trollfiddler]

Hi Deathtwister and Aaron,

Yep, I was just thinking of copying a single column from the edge of the design map and placing it into a new design map as a kind of cloned edge if you see what I mean? Of course now you mention it, the mesh generation has a random facor which would stop an exact match from happening at generation time unless a matching seed of some kind could be chosen.

I'm sure you (Aaron) have thought about all this much more deeply than me. Mine was just a kind of throw-away idea that popped into my head.

Cheers,

T.

[DeathTwister]

Hay bro,

Naw was good questain I thought, and I know Aaron will grock it and figure it all out. Hes very very good at what he does..

DeathTwister